ken

From: rob

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: Question for you.

Hello Ken,

Thanks for the note and for the follow up. I apologize for my not replying yet. The reason I did not is ....there was so much to chew on and consider. It kind of blew me away.

ROB, THAT IS THE WAY OF THE LORD. HE WEANS US OFF OF WHAT WE ONCE HAD AS A 'COMFORT' ZONE AND MAKES US MOVE ON, THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS HAD TO FOLLOW THE PILLAR OF FIRE WHEREVER IT WOULD GO, SO WE HAVE TO LEARN TO FOLLOW ON AS THE LORD STIRS US UP OUT OF OUR COMFORT ZONES TO GO ON IN HIM. THERE ARE LOTS OF EXAMPLES IN SCRIPTURE OF SOME OF THE TRIBES STAYING AT ELIM OR WHEREVER THE PALM TREES WERE TO JUST BE THERE AND NOT GO ON ANYWHERE. THAT IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTS, HE WANTS US TO GO ON TO PERFECTION.

These are my beliefs and understandings having been born again 9 years ago (after being raised Catholic) and regularly read the word, church, books etc.

ROB; YOU ARE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF BEING MATURED, IT IS NOT A DONE DEAL SO TO SPEAK, CAUSE WE ARE BORN, BUT THEN WE HAVE TO GROW UP INTO HIM IN ALL THINGS. WE ARE IN A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WILL GROW FAST IN THE LORD, YET PERFECTLY ALSO.

Revelation has not been an area of my study as it has just been so hard to understand. I have not read the bible in its entirety yet but I will. I've read all of the new testament and am familiar with much scripture in it. I have also read and studied Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs, Samuel, Kings etc. So, I feel I have a much better understanding of the Word than most people which I know does not say a lot, unfortunately.

IT IS INDEED A BLESSING TO KNOW THE SCRIPTURES - ESPECIALLY WHEN THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD CAUSES ONE TO BE DRAWN IN HUMILITY TO WALK WITH THE LORD IN HIS TRUTH. THE LETTER OF THE WORD CAN PUFF ONE UP, BUT TO KNOW THE LORD IS HUMBLING, CAUSE THAT IS HOW CHRIST IS, HUMBLE, YET GLORIFIED. THERE ARE SOME IN THE EARTH RIGHT NOW WHO HAVE NEVER READ A PAGE OF THE SCRIPTURE, YET ARE OVERCOMING ALL THINGS CAUSE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE LIVING WORD TO THEM.

I am a thinker. Sometimes, I think I think ...too much. I can tell you this though. I love the Lord with all of my heart. I believe I understand redemption, Jesus sacrifice for me and the roll the Holy Spirit plays in my life.

When ever I have been confused about who God is and my relationship to him or what he wants for me, for my life etc. I stop and go back to "baseline", which is "God is my Father and he loves me the way a perfect father would." I have a 14 month old boy that I absolutely adore. Now my being a father gives me an even greater understanding of my relationship to God. I know that God knows me and loves me, far greater than I could my own son as His love is perfect.

ROB, THAT IS INDEED PRECIOUS. THE MAIN GIST OF WHAT GOD DOES IS TO REMOVE FROM US ANY AND ALL RELIGIOUS EFFORT. THERE IS NOTHING OF THE RELIGIOUS WORLD THAT WILL IMPRESS FATHER IN ANY WAY. WE ARE ENDURING TRIBULATION TO REMOVE BABYLON (CONFUSION) FROM US IN ITS ENTIRETY. WHEN YOU GO BACK TO THAT BASIC, YOU ARE ONLY DOING WHAT ANY OTHER SON OF GOD WOULD DO, AND THAT IS TO REMEMBER WHO WE ARE IN GOD. RELIGIOUS EFFORTS HAPPEN WHEN WE THINK GOD NEEDS US TO "DO" SOMETHING. GOD DOES NOT NEED ANYTHING FROM US EXCEPT FOR FAITH. AND THAT IS HIS TO BEGIN WITH.

With that said, I simply want to know my father better and want to please him and do the will he has for me ....and enjoy my life and my family which is such a precious gift he's given me.

AND IT MAY BE THAT YOU'RE CONTACT WITH US IS GOD'S ANSWER TO YOUR DESIRE. THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT WE ARE ANYTHING OF OURSELVES, BUT IT IS TO SAY THAT THE LORD MAY BE LEADING YOU TO THOSE BRETHREN, MYSELF, AND THE ONES I AM INCLUDING AS UNDISCLOSED RECIPIENTS, TO CORRESPOND WITH YOU TO SHOW YOU THE MORE EXCELLENT WAY. TO GOD ALONE BELONGS ALL THE GLORY. THAT IS HOW THE LORD DOES HIS WORK, HE USES HIS BODY TO CONFIRM HIS WORD. AND IF THE BODY OF CHRIST IS SENSITIVE TO A MEMBER SEEKING DEEPER TRUTH, THEIR WORDS TO THAT SEEKER WILL RESOUND IN HIM AS A GLORIOUS JOY AND A WONDERFUL SONG OF PRAISE TO OUR REDEEMER.

I believe that in accepting Jesus as my personal savior and what His blood atonement did for me means I can now boldly come to God as my father and talk to Him as my own son would talk to me. I have to know he loves me SO MUCH! I know that if I mess up (which I strive not to) that if I ask forgiveness, it is given immediately. I only desire to please him and to love Him.

THAT IS RIGHT ROB. AND THERE IS NOTHING IN GOD TO PREVENT US FROM COMING TO HIM. ALSO, IT IS THE WORK OF GOD TO DRAW EACH ONE OF US UP HIGHER IN CHRIST. YOUR ARE FORGIVEN EVEN BEFORE YOU ASK. IT IS NOT A RELIGIOUS MOTION OF TRYING TO NAME EACH SIN OFF TO GOD LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TAUGHT, NOR TO CONFESS SIN TO A MAN. YOUR OLD NATURE CAN ONLY SIN, YOUR NEW NATURE CANNOT SIN. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT GOD SEES YOU IN THE NEW NATURE, OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, BEHOLD, ALL THINGS BECOME NEW. THAT WHICH IS BORN OF FLESH IS FLESH, THAT WHICH IS BORN OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT. BELIEVE IT, FOR THAT IS WHAT THE WORD OF GOD STATES.

I believe there is a devil and Hell is a real place. I believe there are demons and spiritual forces at work today but I believe that God has given me authority over them. There is some scripture that I paraphrase that when we get to heaven we will look upon the devil and say "is that what gave me such a hard time? You must be kidding me."

YOU ARE PREFECTLY RIGHT THAT YOU HAVE AUTHORITY OVER THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, AND THAT BY SIMPLE RESISTANCE HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU. GOD ALSO AT THE SAME TIME USES THE POWERS OF DARKNESS FOR HIS ULTIMATE PURPOSES. GOD WILL ALLOW THE ENEMY TO ATTACK AND SPEAK TO AREAS IN YOUR LIFE THAT ARE NOT IN LINE WITH THE WILL OF GOD. THE ENEMY, FINDING A FOOTHOLD IN YOUR LIFE IN THAT CARNAL AREA, IS ABLE TO SET UP SHOP SO TO SPEAK, AND TO WORK DECEPTION TO AND IN YOU. THIS IS DONE BY GOD'S PERMISSION. GOD CAN ACTUALLY COMMAND THE ENEMY AND EVIL SPIRITS TO TAKE A PERSON INTO DECEPTION OR OFF ON A WILD TANGENT. THE REASON? SO THAT WHEN THE PERSON'S PERSONAL INIQUITY IS FILLED UP, GOD WILL THEN SPEAK TO THE PERSON HIS WORD, AND THROUGH REPENTANCE THAT PERSON WILL OVERCOME. DEVILS ARE TOOLS IN GOD'S HAND, CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES, THEY EXIST BY HIM AND FOR HIM AND FOR HIS PURPOSES. HELL IS DEFINITELY A REAL PLACE, BUT IT IS NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE. HELL IS THE PLACE WHEREIN THE SOULS OF MEN AND SPIRITS ARE KEPT UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT TO BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. IN FACT ROB, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN HELL NOW ARE LONGING FOR THE LAKE OF FIRE. THEY ARE PRAYING FOR THAT JUDGEMENT TO COME TO THEM SO THEY CAN BE CAST INTO THAT LAKE - FOR IT IS IN THAT LAKE THAT THEIR BONDS WILL BE REMOVED AND THEY WILL BE SET FREE OF THE BONDAGE THAT HOLDS THEM IN HELL. THEY WILL BE FREE TO ENTER INTO FATHER'S FULLNESS WHICH IS THE PROMISE OF GOD TO ALL CREATION. A GREAT DAY OF REJOICING WILL BE WHEN GOD, THROUGH JUDGEMENT, CASTS THE WICKED INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, WHAT A GLORIOUS DAY THAT WILL BE FOR THOSE WHO ARE THUS CAST THERE! FOR IT IS THE DAY OF THEIR LIBERTY. IT IS THERE THAT ALL SIN, INIQUITY, THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME, ALL OF IT, WILL BE REMOVED FROM THEM.

AND THE LAKE OF FIRE ROB IS NOT A 'GEOGRAPHICAL' LOCATION. IT IS A REALM OF SPIRIT, IN GOD THAT CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM GOD, FOR OUR GOD IS THAT CONSUMING FIRE. AND SO ARE HIS MINISTERS, FOR HE MAKETH HIS MINISTERS AS A FLAME OF FIRE. IN OTHER WORDS, THE OVERCOMERS ARE THE MINISTERING FLAMES OF THE FIRE OF GOD. AND THEY IN UNITY, AND JOINED TOGETHER FORM THAT LAKE INTO WHICH THE UNGODLY, THE SINNER, THE REPROBATE, WHOREMONGERS, ADULTERERS, AND ALL LIARS AND ALL THAT ARE IN THE REALM OF 1ST DEATH ARE CAST. THE OVERCOMER IN CHRIST, IN THE BODY OF CHRIST - IS THAT LAKE ROB. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS NOT SEPARATION -*FROM*- GOD, IT IS A SEPARATION -*TO*- GOD. NO ONE IS EXEMPT FROM THIS JOINING TO GOD, HIS LOVE IS FAR FAR FAR FAR TOO STRONG TO LET ANY SOUL BE LOST, JESUS LEAVES THE 99 SHEEP IN THE FOLD TO SEEK AND SEEK AND SEEK AND SEEK AND SEEK UNTIL HE FINDS THAT ONE THAT IS LOST ON THE CLIFF OF DESTRUCTION, THEN HE SAVES AND SAVES AND SAVES AND SAVES CAUSE THAT IS WHAT JESUS IS, OUR SAVIOUR, THE SAVIOUR OF THE ENTIRE WORLD.

HELL IS NOT SEPARATION FROM GOD. IT IS THE GLORIOUS FULFILLMENT OF GOD. WE ARE TOLD IN MARK 9:44 THAT THE WORM DIES NOT AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. I DON'T KNOW HOW OTHERS FEEL ABOUT THIS, BUT IN MY MIND, THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST TREMENDOUS PROMISE WE CAN FIND IN THE ENTIRE SCRIPTURE CONTEXT OF THE BIBLE. THE WORM DIES NOT, THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED! THESE WORDS FROM THE LIPS OF OUR SAVIOUR. JUST THINK OF IT ROB! NOTHING WILL STOP THE FULL REDEMPTION OF HUMANITY, THE WORM WILL NOT STOP IT'S FEASTING UPON ALL FLESH, AND THE FIRE WILL NOT GO OUT -*UNTIL*- ALL HAS BEEN CONSUMED THAT IS NOT OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD! AND THAT ROB, INCLUDES DEVILS!!!!

I believe I have an excellent relationship with God and I want it to still grow deeper.

I AM LIKE YOU ROB, I WANT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD TO GROW DEEPER. AND HOW BETTER TO GROW DEEP IN GOD THAN TO RECEIVE THAT PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, EVEN THE RESTORATION OF ALL CREATION? BETTER YET, HOW ABOUT FINDING OUT THAT YOU WILL BE A TOOL IN GOD'S HAND TO BRING THAT RESTORATION? WHY? CAUSE YOU TOO WILL BE A MANIFESTED SON OF GOD!

Some of the things you mentioned about all ready having the number etc. I had to think about. I have never heard anything anywhere close to what you said, so I wanted to see how it lines up scripturally and what the Lord shows me in prayer. One thing that seemed apparent to me is you and your family looked to have a LOT OF JOY and it looked as though the love of Christ shines in you. We are to judge a tree by its fruit.

HOW CAN I NOT HAVE JOY ROB? I HAVE JOY BECAUSE GOD SAW FIT TO LET ME LIVE IN FIRST DEATH SO I COULD HAVE THE ABUNDANT JOY OF EXPERIENCING, AND OVERCOMING -*IN*- SECOND DEATH! READ WHAT THE GLORIFIED CHRIST SAID IN REVELATION CH2 AND 3 TO "HIM THAT OVERCOMETH". HE DOES NOT SAY THAT THEY WON'T HAVE TO EXPERIENCE SECOND DEATH OR HELL OR ANY SUCH THING. HE SAYS THAT WE WON'T BE -*HURT*- BY IT IF WE OVERCOME. IN OTHER WORDS, WE DO HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THE FIRES OF GOD, AND THE PROCESSINGS IN THE NITTY GRITTY OF EVERY DAY LIVING, AND PAYING BILLS, AND RAISING KIDS, AND BEING HUSBANDS/DADS/WAGE EARNERS. AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO OVERCOME? VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE. IN THE MIDST OF OUR EVERY DAY LIFE, WE LOOK UNTO THE FACE OF OUR LORD, FIXING OUR GAZE STEADFASTLY UPON HIM, AND HE BRINGS US THROUGH EACH TEST FOR HIS GLORY. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO IT. TO THOSE THAT OVERCOME, THEY WILL BE GRANTED BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST TO SIT WITH HIM UPON HIS ETERNAL THRONE, JUST AS GOD GRANTED CHRIST TO SIT WITH HIM IN HIS THRONE. IN OTHER WORDS, OUR END IS TO SIT ON THE THRONE. WHY? SO WE CAN GLOAT ABOUT HOW NICE WE LOOK THERE?

NO!

A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

WE ARE GRANTED THAT PLACE TO SIT AND REIGN FOR ONE PURPOSE ONLY, AND THAT IS TO SET CREATION FREE TO COME INTO THE VERY SAME LIBERTY, THAT GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL (or everything to everyone).

The idea of God casting me into a Lake of fire though, does not seem to line up with what I know of God. Would cast my own son into such a lake? It seemed to me to invalidate what Jesus did for me. After all, He went to the pit hell that I do not have to.

ROB, GET THIS STRAIGHT. IF YOU RECIEVE CHRIST AS YOUR LORD, YOU WILL PARTAKE OF THE FIRE OF GOD. ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST Acts 2:4 THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND TONGUES OF FIRE WERE SEEN UPON THEIR HEADS. OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE THAT BAPTISED THEM WITH THAT FIRE. LISTEN TO WHAT JOHN THE BAPTIST SAID.:Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

THE WORDS "and with" WERE NOT IN THE ORIGINAL. THAT IS NOT WHAT JOHN THE BAPTIST SAID WHEN HE SAID THIS.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost fire:

NOTE THAT I TOOK THE WORDS - "and with" - OUT OF THERE. THE HOLY GHOST IS FIRE. JUST IMAGINE IF YOU WOULD THE LAKE OF FIRE, AND CHRIST, THE HOLY RESURRECTED LAMB OF GOD CUPS HIS HAND AND DIPS OUT OF THAT LAKE HIS FIRE WHICH HE POURS UPON THE HEADS OF HIS SAINTS ON EARTH. THAT IS THE FIRE THAT WILL REMOVE FROM THEM THEIR INIQUITY, THEIR SIN, WHATEVER IT IS THAT SEPARATES THEM FROM GOD. IT IS ALSO THAT SAME FIRE THAT CHARGES THEM UP TO PREACH THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL OF CHRIST UNTO THE NATIONS.

BUT NOTE ROB, IT IS ALL THE SAME FIRE. GOD DOES NOT HAVE DIFFERENT KINDS OF FIRE. WHEN MOSES BUILT THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS, THE TWO ALTARS, THE ALTAR OF INCENSE AND THE BRAZEN ALTAR WERE BOTH ORIGINALLY IGNITED BY THE FIRE FROM THE PILLAR OF FIRE. THOSE FIRES BURNED FOR 1500 YEARS. ALBEIT THE PRIESTS ADDED WOOD, BUT THE ORIGINAL SPARK WAS OF GOD SUBSTANCE. SO IT IS WITH US.

GET IT OUT OF YOUR MIND THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF SEPARATION OF GOD FROM MANKIND. THERE IS NO SEPARATION. CHRIST'S CROSS HAS BRIDGED THE GREAT GULF FIXED BETWEEN US. IN YOUR MIND YOU ARE THINKING THAT THE LAKE IS A PLACE OF TORMENT. THE ONLY THING TORMENTED THERE IS THAT THING THAT CANNOT ENTER GOD'S PRESENCE, AND THAT IS YOUR FALLEN ADAMIC NATURE. THAT MAN OF SIN WHICH CHRIST CRUCIFIED IN HIS BODY ON THE TREE. IT IS THAT MAN OF SIN IN US THAT THE WORM AND THE FIRE WILL CONSUME TILL IT BE ALL GONE.

IN TIME THIS WILL BECOME CLEARER.

So, I think I need to read your note a couple of times to see where your coming from.

Again, my apologies for the late reply ....your note just kind of blew me away and I wanted to process it.

ROB, IT BLOWS YOU AWAY BECAUSE WHAT I AM SHARING IS ABSOLUTELY CONTRARY TO WHAT MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY STATES AS TRUTH. WHAT DOES MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY (i'll call it christendom) TEACH? THEY TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT, ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM CHRIST, CHRISTLESS ETERNITY. THEY TEACH THAT GOD IS MAD, THAT GOD WAS SURPRISED THAT ADAM ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. THAT GOD IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO WILL ACCEPT JESUS AND WHO WON'T. WHO WILL MAKE IT TO THE SHORES OF HEAVEN AND WHO WILL BE LOST. THEY TEACH THAT NATURAL ISRAEL IS SOME SORT OF SIGN. THAT THE RAPTURE IS SOON TO HAPPEN.

NOT SO.

WHEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH COMES TO YOU IT CAN DO A VERY UNIQUE THING. THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WILL ACTUALLY GIVE YOU A DOUBT! IT WILL MAKE YOU "DOUBT" WHAT YOU THINK IS "TRUTH". WHEN THAT DOUBT COMES AS TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE, THE RELIGIOUS TENDENCY IS TO DISMISS IT AS SATAN, BUT IT MAY NOT BE SATAN, IT MAY BE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH THROWING YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM OUT OF COMMISSION. BUT GOD IS FAITHFUL. HE IMMEDIATELY HAS READY HIS TRUTH TO INTRODUCE ONE TO.

WHEN I TELL YOU THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE MARK OF THE BEAST, THAT YOU ARE DESTINED TO BE CONSUMED IN THE FIRES OF GOD, THAT YOUR LIFE WILL BE REMOVED SO CHRIST'S LIFE WILL BE SEEN, THEN LISTEN, FOR WHAT I AM SAYING IS TOTALLY CONTRARY TO ALL OF CHRISTENDOM. THE TRUTH IS WE HAVE THAT MARK IN OUR FALLEN CONDITION. AND OUR FALLEN CONDITION, ALONG WITH THE MARK, IS DESTINED TO BE REMOVED FROM US BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING (daily trials and tests), SO THAT WE CAN WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. THAT WE ARE DESTINED TO OVERCOME HERE ON EARTH AND NOT ESCAPE BY SOME SORT OF RAPTURE WHICH CANNOT BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE. ALL SUCH THINGS YOU FREELY WEIGH IN PRAYER, AND KNOW THAT GOD WILL CONFIRM HIS WORD TO YOU.

The above is where I am coming from. I think we are on the same page ....aren't we? YES WE ARE, I REJOICE OVER YOU ROB.

WHEN DAVE GARNER WRITES TO YOU, TELL HIM WHERE YOU LIVE AS HE WILL WANT TO COME VISIT YOU.

I look forward to your reply. Thanks Ken,

In Christ,

Rob

Rob; I am asking that some of these brethren, that I have written this email to in Bcc would now come into this conversation. There are two brothers in particular that can add much more light to this than I am able, Ross McKay (his emails come as Gbug - which means "God Bless You Greatly") and Dave Garner. If you brethren should write Rob, if you feel led of the Lord to do so at this point, pleace cc the email to me as well.

Thanks Rob for being patient with me and for writing me back. Ken

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: insert

Thanks Ken. I love my family. Regarding "coming out". From everything I understand you to have said, not only will those that don't "come out" but even those who have not accepted Christ as their savior (even before they die) will ALL go to heaven? Is that correct? Bottom line is because of Christ, God is not mad at man. What about Romans 10:8-12 and John 3:16?

Rob

Hi Rob, nice to hear from you again. If you want to talk to me via live type chat or a microphone, you can through windows messenger, just put in kjvisscher@msn.com and we will connect.

Will address your PHENOMENAL question here, for it is the crux of why we believe what we believe.

God said to me, and to those who I know to be overcomers, the very same thing. It is this verse:

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The Lord stressed for us to COME OUT from among them. Who was the them? It was they who held the truth in unrighteousness. Those of the church systems, the denominations who are working against the truth rather than IN or FOR the truth. Denominational Christianity. The Lord says to His overcomers that He will deliver them from the three realms of Babylon, Religious, Political and eventually Economic. The Lord strictly forbade me in 1979 to never be a part of a denominational circle. That does not mean that God is not working there, but for me, it was not MY place. My place was as He said to me back then "to be joined unto them of like precious faith". The Lord in this verse above says that it is an "unclean" thing. Why? Because they have a distorted view of Christ. They view Christ, and God for that matter, as ogres. A god who is so defeated and surprised by Adam's disobedience that He tried to battle back with a plan of redemption that hopefully most of humanity will receive, and therefore not be in eternal torment. That man's puny will is greater than God because God is a "gentleman" who won't go against a person's will. So the thought is that maybe, if God is really good at it, get 20% of humanity to believe in Jesus. The rest the devil will win. And they also see Christ's atonement as something that had to be cause God was mad at us. And God, because He was mad, had to hatch out of desperation this plan of salvation. The world cannot be held anymore or controlled anymore by God, but an "antichrist" will one day rise up and usurp God's creation to his own wicked ways and will cause mankind to fall into a mark to be received. So then they invented the "rapture" doctrine so the church can get out of here. The word "rapture" isn't even in the scripture, neither is there any verse, not even 1 Thess 4 that comes close to the theory that has been invented by this babylonish church system called "unclean" by the Lord in this verse. And on top of that Rob, Jesus prayed:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Now how is it Rob that there are now 65000 christian denominations, one who believes this way, and one who believes that way.? A poor peasant who comes to Christ for salvation immediately gets pounced on by denominationalism and for the rest of that peasants life he is serving some god in front of an altar somewhere trying to appease God's wrath. Does the factions of 65000 denominations do ANYTHING to help the world believe that God sent Christ as this scripture indicates? The Lord alone has to be our structure Rob, not a system, or a group.

Here is one more thing that will floor you. There is an OVER emphasis on "pastors" today. The word "pastor" occurs ONCE in Jeremiah 17:16. and NO WHERE in the NEW Testament. The word Pastor(s)(Plural) appears only 7 times in Jeremiah and ONCE in Ephesians. ONLY ONCE. So why all this emphasis on those that earn wages for the gospel? Jesus never charged as cent or shilling or talent or whatever they used for money then to anyone, and HE NEVER COMMANDED US TO DO SO.

Now on to your next point, that you said that even those who do not accept Christ as savior go to heaven. I never said that, in fact, i told you that they were in Hell! And Rob, what is it that makes us relate to heaven as a "geographical location?" It is a "realm of spirit, just as hell and the lake of fire are realms of spirit." No one is exempt from coming into HIs life Rob, whether in hell or heaven! There is NO PLACE where GOD IS NOT. NO SUCH THING.

Yes, i am saying all will be saved, NO ONE LOST.

And before you delete this email, take a look at Jesus. Look at what happened when He died.

There were THREE THINGS that His spirit did when His body died on the cross and His spirit came out of His body.

1) He went forth and rend the veil of the temple from top to bottom along with an earthquake. Matt 27:51 Why did He rent the veil? Denominations say it was so we could have free access now to the Holy of Holies and therefore - God. NOPE! It is SO GOD HAS FREE ACCESS TO US. JESUS BROKE DOWN THE BARRIERS THAT PREVENTED GOD FROM BECOMING ONE WITH HIS CREATURES.

2) He resurrected those that were in their graves around Jerusalem. Matt 27:52, That is why Joseph gave commandment concerning his bones to be carried out of Egypt when the Lord would visit the children of Israel and deliver them into their own land, he obviously had a vision of RESURRECTION. It is entirely probable that Joseph was one of those Christ raised from the dead.

3) Jesus went into the lowest hell and preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:18,19. Those spirits were as the scripture states here, the spirits of dead people who died in Noah's flood. But I also have cause to believe that they were also of all those who lived ungodly after them, and even those BEFORE the flood. And why did Christ go preach to them if they are destined to eternal torment? Just to gloat over them and to make their torment WORSE? No, God gave them an answer of peace. I know that Christ emptied that hell Rob. The CLOUDs that received Christ when He ascended into heaven was the spirits of those that he brought forth out of hell, all of them, not one lost. Psalm 68:18 and Eph 4:8.

So if you want to be angry with me for seeing that the atonement of Christ was not only precious, but perfect for ALL, and that God will save ALL and that God will be ALL IN ALL, then so be it Rob. But I cannot deny that the Lord is the savior of all men, especially those that believe.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Now, to answer your question about Romans 10:9,10. What says the verse IN context? It says that with our mouth we must confess Him and His salvation. But to balance that Rob, we must also look at what Jesus said in John 6:44 that no one can come to Him except that the Father draw them. So if they are not drawn Rob, THEY CAN'T COME. And on the other hand, if God IS drawing them, THEY CAN'T NOT COME! And this confession of mouth, yes, it is a mouth that does it, but it is not according to the beating of the heart and the breathing of the lungs that this confession is. But it is according to EACH MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER 1 Cor 15:23. If a person in this life IS NOT DRAWN BY GOD to come to Christ, then we have to draw a conclusion. And that conclusion is that God knows those who WILL be saved in this world and those who WILL NOT be saved in this world. But He has ordained in the next that ALL WILL BE SAVED.

If what I am saying is true, then fine. But if what I am saying cannot be, then why Rob, did Christ preach to the spirits in prision in 1 Peter 3:19? They didn't have living flesh mouths to confess Him, nor living beating hearts to believe on His name. But they were preached to - in person - by the LIVING CHRIST.

I LOVE the story of Christ preaching to the spirits in hell Rob. It makes this verse much more clear.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Rob, these are the guys he sprung out of hell when he descended!)

Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (Rob, that is what 1 Peter 3:18, 19 says)

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So guess what Rob, Christ fills all things! He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending. He went to the Lowest hell, making his bed there, being numbered with the transgressors. Then He also ascended to the highest heaven! And He fills all things in between, including our daily trials and testings.

Now on to John 3:16. Here it is quoted.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rob, did you know that this verse had three words added to it by the translators? In the original context, this verse does not read this way. The three words that were NOT there are

"not perish, but". So let's read it again, as it was originally said by the Lord.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life.

Ok, let's qualify this. The term "whosoever" comes from the greek word "pas". "Pas" was also used in the King James bible for "many" and "all". And what does "pas" mean? It means,

ALL MANKIND INCLUSIVE, NONE EXEMPT!

Just read that again, with that verse put in total perspective!

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT ALL MANKIND INCLUSIVE, NONE EXEMPT, BELIEVING IN HIM SHOULD HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

Now I may be stumbling around with my words a bit, but I invite you to get out the concordance and study this out.

If what I am saying is true Rob, then we fall on our knees, and for the first time in great and glorious admiration, we call upon our Savior, seeing Him upon the tree, through the tomb, and resurrected AS TOTALLY SUCCESSFUL AND COMPLETING WHAT GOD SENT HIM TO DO.

1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Now Rob, the end will come when Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to God. According to modern christendom, Christ will say "Here is the work completed that you sent me to do Father, here is 20% (I'm being far too generous) of humanity!"

NO WAY. When Christ delivers up this Kingdom to God, IT WILL BE COMPLETE.

Rob, wake UP! TheLord is calling you to RUN RUN RUN RUN this race!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: hello

Hi Ken.

Thanks for the note. I apologize; I have been on the road since Saturday and this is the first opportunity I have had to get my email (ouch!!!!!). As for being offended ....No. Not at all. You have given me a great deal of food for thought. I was quite upset with world events, tribulation etc. etc. and information was very comforting. In short ...I have been thinking about the whole ("God is not mad at us") thought which seems to be cornerstone to what I (and at least everyone I know) would say is a contrary opinion to what I have been taught. (Not a bad thing at all though)

As war looms on the horizon, I have had great concerns about our economy, death destruction ...and while here on hearth the possibility of having scarcity of needed things ....LIKE FOOD! I wonder if all of this will blow over ....I wonder if I should be concerned and if so, what can I do?

So ...Nope. Your information as different as it is from anything I have been exposed to has helped.

If you don't go to church ... do you just use email to fellowship?

Talk soon,

Rob

Hello Rob, it sure was a joy to my heart to hear from you again. I am so very glad you wrote back. Fellowship? Well, the Lord told me one word in September of 1979 when I was aiming at becoming a denominational minister. I was driving in my Toyota car when I heard what my Father said to me. Do you know what it was? QUIT. Just like that.

And I did, obeying, going out like Abraham of old I suppose, not knowing where I was going. But the Lord did, and He joined me to those of "like precious faith". I have not much 'local' sideways fellowship, but do have lots on email or on Windows Messenger kjvisscher@msn.com .

And Rob, I spoke the truth when I said that Christ will fail no one, not one person, not your relations, no one will be out of God's range of Love. That love is INFINITE.

Don't be upset by world events and Iraq etc. The Lord is doing this entire thing. He is allowing the whole of the world to get drawn into this, and I do believe personally that the Lord wants Iraq to be dealt with as HE sees fit, not as man thinks. It seem to me that when the ungodly rule, the people perish, but when the righteous rule, the land flourishes. My personal thoughts don't matter, but what I see is that God is doing a work here that we need not worry about. The Lord will look after His own, even if He has to feed us with Ravens! Whether or not this blows over, well, in time, all wars will cease, but for the immediate, I am just not so sure. I watched a special investigative report about Saddam Hussein and he has hidden away tons of un accounted for weaponry which has not been found. That alone needs to be addressed. War may be the only way, but I don't think it would last long at all.

The thing I don't like is that there is alot of hypocricy with all this. Husseins original fuel for war was fed by the United States, and how soon they forget!

Rob, the earth is the Lord's the nations and they that dwell therein. Praise His name. Ken

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:11 AM

Subject: Re: hey

Hi Ken,

"To be a friend, you must show yourself friendly". Thanks for your follow up, Ken. Things with me have been good but I've been quite busy. I did correspond with your friend Frankie a bit as well. Nice "guy"? Actually, I never did understand if Frankie was a man or woman, "ie" suggests a gal; but I'm not sure. I never did get an idea one way or another from our email. I really enjoyed sending back and forth and found Frankie to be very encouraging. You do seem to know some very nice people Ken.

R

Rob; Frankie is a woman, married to a plumber, they are precious people. She is very stable in the Lord. I value your friendship and want to help you any way I can scripturally too. We are both busy, lots of testings for us both too I am sure, but be that as it may, the Lord is working out the whole counsel of His will in us daily.

Ken

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:10 AM

Subject: Re: hey

Thanks Ken.

I enjoy your email. I have a question for you; forgive me if I have already asked this:

First off, Christ has changed my life as I know He has yours. The way I was saved was sort of by "Insurance Policy" which was ministered with Love but the underlying message was "you don't know when your time is, why put off accepting Christ until later". My acceptance was radical and the course of my life altered leading me to church, new friends, my wife, son etc etc etc.

With love, this is how I minister and witness as well. "Do you know God Loves you? Do you know for certain where you would go if you died today? Would you like to know for sure?". So my question is: If everyone goes to heaven, how can I minister Christ in this way? This catalyst of understand that Jesus died for my sins combined with the urgency to accept him NOW is what changed me. I think if I knew I would "make the trip anyway", I would simply have continued living for myself as at that time, my flesh ruled.

Your thoughts.

Thanks Ken.

Rob

Rob, there is nothing untrue or wrong with how you would share your time of witnessing with other people. There is no error that I can see about asking someone if they know where they would go if they died right now. That is not a problem, because Rob, I have never said that people automatically go straight to 'heaven' neither said I that you need not witness for Christ. In fact, we are told that we are to pray for Kings and those in authority, then the rest of mankind for God has commanded that all be saved, however He wants us to pray for that.

The fact of the matter is that people do not go directly to heaven with a ticket of bypassing processings. No one is exempt from the fires of purging or processing. Not a catholic thing where we have some sort of purgatory, BECAUSE pergatory denoted SEPARATION from God. There is NO SUCH SEPARATION from God in existence anywhere in God's universe, one cannot escape God.

What you need from the Lord, along with the rest of us, is WISDOM and DISCERNMENT and the FEAR OF THE LORD. Some people need to have their lives rattled and shaken up, others can be gently drawn to the loving arms of our Savior, either way, you need in your witnessing to SEE in discernment the heart of that person you are telling the gospel to.

But let me make one thing clear Rob. This may floor you, so grab a hold of your socks, cause I am going to state this as truth. God is not at all interested in saving the masses of humanity at this time nor for the past 2000 years. That is not His purpose. Do you remember Old Simeon who held the baby Jesus in his arms in Luke ch 2? Well, that same old Simeon is quoted again in Acts 15:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Now Rob, what you need to see here is that God 'visited' the gentiles first to take out from them a people for His name. This visitation of God is the consequence of the choosing He said to Jeremiah.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

God's whole purpose for this past 2000 years has not been to bring all humanity to salvation in Christ! His whole purpose is to draw OUT FROM HUMANITY those who He would call His "overcomers".

These overcomers are the people of God who are processed in the fires of His indignation and wrath, to have removed from them their adamic nature and to present them to Himself in Holiness FOR ONE PURPOSE. And that is to MANIFEST THEM TO CREATION TO SET CREATION FREE.

God is not after us to go witnessing Rob. He is after us to have us YEILD OUR LIVES IN TOTAL ABANDONMENT TO GOD SO THAT HIS WILL CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED IN US. We can witness till we are blue in the face, and maybe bring in a small number through our lifetime. OR, we can allow God to bring us to the fullness of our inheritance in Him and then manifest us. When the Sons of God are manifested, ONE SINGLE SON at that time will do more in 5 minutes than all the clergy and laity of the past 2000 years has accomplished with their programs and their schemes to raise money and to promote their own kingdom building programs! The greatest goal in our lives should not be to 'witness' TO man, but to be a witness 'TO' GOD and His workings in us, yeilding every moment to His hand upon us. For when His work is done, and we are glorified, all creation will have death taken away forever along with the Old nature and flesh! . That is God's entire purpose at this time.

Note again the verse I pasted above from Acts.

He says that He will build again the tabernacle of David which is fallen down. What was the tabernacle of David? It was a little tent over the ark! That's it! Of all the tabernacles, this one was furthest away from the pattern given to Moses! Yet it is the one God refers to! Who is this tabernacle? It is the congregation of God's OVERCOMERS. Those who have conquered the image, mark and name of the beast, who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire Rev 15:2 who sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb, saying "

Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: "

So what is their song? It is the song of TOTAL REDEMPTION.

Just look again at Acts 15:17, "That the RESIDUE" of men might seek after the Lord". Why seek after the Lord if they won't find him and be saved?

God's entire purpose is to FINISH HIS WORK in His OVERCOMERS to present them to creation as DELIVERERS.

Look now at another section of scripture.

Oba 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].

Oba 1:19 And [they of] the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and [they of] the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin [shall possess] Gilead.

Oba 1:20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel [shall possess] that of the Canaanites, [even] unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which [is] in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Note that Obadiah stressed here the word "fire". Jacob, representing the sonship company of overcomers, is depicted as fire, and Joseph a flame (of that fire). Esau (unregenerate humanity) is stubble (for burning), and ALL of the house of Esau (all humanity) will be CONSUMED by the flame of Jacob/Joseph. NO ONE WILL BE LEFT UNBURNT BY THIS FIRE.

And that's not all, they "possess" the mount of Esau (Kingdom of flesh), the Philistines (enemies of the Lord), the feilds of Ephriam (unfruitful labors) and Samaria (labors abroad that will not bear righteous works before God). Benjamin posesses Gilead. Benjamin (Son of My Right hand) possessed the HOPE OF GLORY!. THE FLESH GETS BURNT!!!!!!

And what happens, SAVIORS, those who have first been partakers of the fire, JUDGE the mount of ESAU. Why? To bring forth in it God's KINGDOM.

The work of the son company RIGHT now is yeildeness to Father's inworkings. Their work when Father is done will be TO SET CREATION FREE.

Christianity thinks that at this time we need to have big crusades and all kinds of programs to get the lost in to heaven. Jesus already took care of their salvation. And guess what Rob? It is NOT UP TO US to bring them to heaven! In fact, what Jesus said disannuls ANY effort on our part to save anyone! Jesus Himself said:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do you know what the greek word for Draw was? It came from Stongs #138, which meant TO DRAG. Oh? So you mean that no one can COME TO CHRIST except F-A-T-H-E-R drags Him! NOT US, FATHER!

And what is the END RESULT of being DRAGGED to Christ by Father? Christ will RAISE HIM UP (RESSURRECTION) AT THE LAST DAY! Rob, I ask you, WHO IS EXEMPT?

What do WE DO? We walk with the Lord, and that walk creates LIGHT which will draw (drag) men to God. Cause God works in this world to cause humanity to become frustrated with their life, and seek something more. Frustrated with both religion and efforts and the nitty gritty of every day living, and He then draws them to salvation. The means which Father may use may be us and our testimonies, but it is God all the way Rob.

The ministers of God are flames of fire Rob, We are the LAKE OF FIRE, the wicked are cast INTO US, and there the iniquity that held them is removed.

Imagine if you will a son of God manifested in a glorified body just like Jesus body is right now. They can do in 5 minutes that which 2000 years of churchianity has not been able to do. All humanity will be delivered from death, completely, forever, and from sin, the old man, the flesh when the sons are manifested.

For me Rob, I am not going to waste time trying to draw men to salvation, but I will fill my time worshipping the Lord while I stand upon the sea of glass (humanity in the fires of God) singing the new song of redemption for all mankind in high worship to Father who has FINISHED THIS WORK.

Praise His Name.

your brother Ken.

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:12 PM

Subject: Re: hey

Thanks Ken.

Wow. You know, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I am also not the dullest either. In fact, like most people, I think I am fairly bright. I read your whole email ....very slowly and in several parts I read it and re read it to try to understand. I am embarrassed to say, I don't think I got it all, which is some what frustrating as you seem to have insight / understanding which I do not have. I am still trying to judge whether this makes sense or not and I very much appreciate your taking the time etc and obvious patience and kindness you have to show me ....but I think I am still missing it.

What I understood you to say is (and this may be some what over simplified)

1) There is nothing wrong witnessing to man or in asking them what I normally would about heaven, salvation etc.

2) However, all this witnessing is not as fruitful in terms of redeeming souls as it would be to praise God, spend my time in worship, and prayer so that my light burns brighter. ie. become an overcomer.

3) The overcomers, which you are saying you are one, and I am assuming, potentially me, will win more souls at the right time for God than all the efforts by all men since the crucifixion.

Is that it in a very simple nutshell?

How about the verse that say "He who wins souls is wise." Is that not instruction to win souls?

By the way, in the King James I see that it says Simon not Simeon in Acts but it did not seem relevant to me that it would be a different person anyway. I think I track you (to a small degree) outside of scripture because I read and read those verses and ....I still not get it.

In summary, what I should do with my life is to spend more time in prayer and worship so that I can be an effective witness "TO" God rather than TO men. How do I witness to God. A witness testifies. They tell their story; tell what they know. When I witness, TO people About Christ, I tell them what I know, my story and what He has done for me. How do I witness TO God. What could I tell him that He does not know?

What is the benefit in the spiritual realm of someone accepting Christ here and now? They don't get to "pass go and go straight to boardwalk" ......?

Thanks again Ken. I am hoping you don't blow me away. I am analytical, I have an Electrical and Computer Engineering Degree; I think I know the Word, but you have blown me away.

I look forward to the next email.

R

Hello Rob; Thanks for emailing me back. I want to answer your 2nd and 3rd question and then Proverbs 11:30 which you quoted here.

I might add that those are impressive trades you have there, you are a smart man Rob and that is indeed wonderful. As for me, I am only a brain injured man, both front lobes of my brain were destroyed many years ago, but God chooses the foolish and the base to confound the wisdom of this world. Not that the wisdom of this world is bad, but just so no one can glory in their own abilities. The Lord has blessed me with many talents also, and to Him belongs all the glory.

To answer 2), Don't misunderstand me. This is not a 'works' mentality we need here, this is a simple realm of faith in His finished work. That faith in His finished work will do far more in our witnessing than any efforts we do, whether it be religious or otherwise. The entire crux of what God is doing is very simple. He is removing "religious effort" from us. By "us" , I mean those who are yeilding to His inworkings. If you read Revelation 13, you will see a depiction of 2 beasts. A wild beast and a lesser beast. Both are the same beast. They are very simple to understand if you see them in the light of His glory. The beast is the adamic nature, the wild one being that nature in mankind in it's fallen adamic state, and the lesser one being the adamic nature in it's "religiosity". Both of them are depicting untempered and unkempt walks which are without God's discretion. When we think we have to do a "work" for God, we decieve ourselves, cause God's work is done "potentially" and is being worked out by God perfecty by His hand alone. Otherwise, it's just religious effort on our part. ( I think I already told you that we already have the mark 666 embrazened upon us, if not, ask me again, for you and I both have it). What God is doing is removing effort from us. That is the entire process of His fire. That is why it is best to submit to His workings. To do so is a confession before God that you are (1), believing that His work IS finished (potentially), and (2) that you are allowing that work to now be completed in you as He sees fit. The final outcome of allowing God to do such a thing is the free course of His life through you to creation.

To answer 3), The whole thing is NOT winning souls Rob. That is DONE. Jesus DID THAT. He left the ninety and nine and found the one that was lost. The creation is still groaning, under the weight of adam's fall. The entire process of becoming an overcomer is to remove from off of it the process and fruit of that fall. It is not that we need the mentality of getting "souls" for God said:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Now if all souls are His, what are we worried about? Look at this verse I just quoted. This is the chapter that explains about 'bearing iniquity (self will)" God here states that all souls are HIS. However, the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Rob! What soul sinned? EVERYBODY'S. Who died? EVERYBODY. But who owns all souls? GOD! The problem modern christianity is having is that they think we have to work to get the lost in. How can we work to get the lost in for salvation when Jesus finished that work?

Look at what we term, "the Great Commission".

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is the responsibility for them believing or not believing ON US? no, it's not. He that believes not shall be damned. Greek "To judge against, pass sentence". What gets damned? Answer, their UNBELIEF. Anything God judges does not get separated from God, it get's separated TO God. The thing thus judged, has whatever it was that prevented it from coming forth into life removed from it. Thus God is free to once again be one with His creature. This great commission is a guarantee that all shall be done because CHRIST SAID SO. In otherwords, He will be the enablement for it.

As for whether or not I or you is an overcomer, that's a simple answer. Are you enduring each trial every day? Do you see God controlling the interplay of good and evil in your life every day? That is the way of the overcomer. They are not bringing forth some sort of sparkling glory cloud, they are living in the nitty gritty of every day life, paying bills, cleaning house, working at a job, all of that to accomplish their lives in this world. We overcome when we yeild to God and come through a trial.

The benefit of accepting Christ here and now is that life becomes more of a reward. Everyone has pressures (trials), but to accept Him now, gives us the faith that we go through them because of His enablement. God is not going to deliver us OUT of our testings. He gives us the grace we need to go THROUGH them and to overcome in them. That is why we accept Christ now and therefore have spiritual benefit.

What needs to happen here Rob, is you need to realize that it is not a question of whether or not a person is in or outside of God. What needs to happen is that you rest in the fact that Christ's atonement was sufficient, and God's ability enough to draw all men. As for you and your wife and child, you need to know this, and go on in God, and believe His word.

Such belief will separate you from what you thought in the past was truth. And some of those you once fellowshipped with will reject you for it, but that's ok. The bed just got shorter, and the blanket too small for you to abide therein any longer. Nothing against those who will not accept what you now see as truth, just that you need to go in another direction. They too will come to the knowledge of truth in time also. You go on in God, ask Him about these things, and don't be afraid to ask anymore questions, I will try my best to help.

Ken

ken

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:31 PM

Subject: Re: hey

Hello Ken.

I have not read your response yet but I wanted to immediately reply by saying that ....I find it almost un fathomable that you could be someone who was once brain injured. As I recall you told me about your accident, having a motor, I believe blow up in your face as well as the very thin skull you have in the front. This testimony alone is miraculous. I had forgot you told me that and I was frustrated as what you said was going over my head.

I will read your reply and get back to you soon,

Thanks Ken.

Rob

Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life; and he that winneth souls [is] wise.

Just look closely at this verse. the FRUIT of the righteous is a tree of life, that is step ONE.

Step TWO, he that winneth souls is wise.

So look at the order. First of all fruit comes to those who are righteous. We are only righteous by His righteousness which is imputed to us. That fruit is a tree of life, the "other" tree in the garden of eden, not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I will comment on that in the next paragraph. So the result is that the "fruit" of righteousness will WIN souls. Not religious works, not efforts, not our trying, but by being "righteous".

God created all the trees of the garden, and there are two in particular that genesis brings to our attention, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created BOTH trees. The both have a purpose. One, to lead us into a life of SELF and PRIDE, the other to lead us to righteousness. Both trees are IN YOUR SOUL. And you choose either one by how you walk before the Lord. Do you walk in your own self effort? Or do you walk as one who would cling to the Lord and trust implicitly in Him alone? Do you pick the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and think they are precious fruits of God's goodness? or do you see them as poisonous fruits that are not good for you to eat? Do you eat of the tree of life instead? and find His life permeating your being which is LIFE to others as well? How do you discern the difference? These trees are IDENTICAL. The answer is, choose the 'humble' one.

If you want to read what the Lord taught me about it, you can read about my experience after the Lord allowed satan to take me just as He did Jesus when He was tempted of the devil after fasting for 40 days. It's at http://www3.telus.net/wc/deceived.html which shows you a time of deception God ordered me to go through to teach me this.

Also, I am attaching a tract here that may be of help, it is attached to this email.

Ken

From: rob

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: hey

Hi Ken.

Actually I don't have messenger. When I click on your link it just brings up an email with your address. I had AOLs IM at one time but it just chewed up CPU processes so I took it out.

I tracked more of what you said but I had to cross ref the New Living Translation to understand. KJ can be a bit much sometimes. I actually did not see how the scripture you gave fits together but I did understand the scrip after looking it up in NLT. I did understand the part about Moses and the stones as well as doctrinal teaching and it does seem to fit but it also seems to be a bit of a stretch too. Don't get me wrong, I was raised catholic and was born again 9 years ago and I attend a non denominational faithfilled church now. Looking at Catholism, it is easy to say "that does not line up with the word". Ex. Praying to Mary, Men only Priests, Priests being Celibate, reciting the same prayers over and over, praying to dead saints, following blindly anything the pope says. Etc. Also, I believe the Christian church has pockets of hypocrisy as well. The one thing I think we can all agree on ....even the Catholics is. God was made man; who died for us, that we are saved.

I don't get the part about Enoch either. The NLT says paraphrased "Jesus is coming and there are thousands like him" or something to that degree. I missed your comment about the carnival and mirrors as in my mind, mirrors suggest distortion; illusions not true to form.

Talk to you soon,

Rob

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken & Janis Visscher

To: rob

Subject: Re: hey


-- Original Message -----

From: rob

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: hey

Amazing!!! Do all your friends you've copied on your original emails believe the same way you do or is it mostly your own understanding? I am guessing the former.

Rob

Hello Rob, (as the missiles fly!)

There is a need for me to answer your question above in a certian way.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

I am glad you are a student of the scripture Rob, that gives you the advantage of familiarity with the written word. The danger in that though is if it is INDOCTRINATED into your thinking. Christendom is famous for making bricks out of mud and straw. Anyone who goes to a bible school or college, comes out in the same shape as their teachers. I am going to comment on the scripture above in just a few sentences, but first want to address my statement just made about being made in the same shape as our teachers.

Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up [any] iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

We are the stones of the altar, built to bear the weight of the sacrifice. NOTE. They were WHOLE STONES, upon which NO MAN has lifted any iron. God is after us JUST the very way He created us to be, not shaped by our education or influences, but shaped by His creative power to fit perfectly with the other stones to be a part of His purpose in showing forth His atonement. When I begin to speak to a person such as yourself, most of what I have to say undoes their religious thinking. In other words, the facade of the mud and straw brick has to be chipped away from the whole living stone that was created by the Hand of God in the first place. What is happening to you Rob, is you are being asked by God to lay down all your previous teachings, because what I share with you will not align with anything the churches state as truth. Well, that's not completely true, there may be elemental things. But not the entire thing for sure.

One of the things you must realize about denominational christianity is it is a form of CONTROL. In fact, the way the bible was converted into the King James Version has many examples in it of CONTROL. The entire interpetation, based on natural thinking, will cause one to believe these erroneous doctrines of eternal torment, and angry God, man has to choose, tithing etc etc etc. All of these are part of the brick making plan of "Babylon" (confusion). What I am doing Rob is setting you free of all that. Free to be that living stone that God created, hearing from God all on your own, being led by Him alone and knowing Him intimately on your own. So that even if you were abandoned on a far away island, isolated from the rest of humanity, your fellowship in God would not be one iota altered. My work as a son of God is to UNDO what damage has been done, to give you the true meat of His word, and allow you to be healed of your past influences. This healing you need must come WITHOUT you holding or harboring any feelings of ill will towards those in the catholic or any other church that held you to false doctrine.

Now on to the first verse I quoted above. You asked me if those that are recieving these emails believe as I do. Yes, they know the God of restoration. But each of us sees the Lord in a little different light, perfect unity of SIGHT is still to come to all of us. That is why God has placed teachers in His body, to teach according to the dictates of His spirit that word which will set one free. I have listed on my site the websites that teach ultimate reconciliation of all things through Christ http://www3.telus.net/wc/salvation_links.html . However, certian side or perifial doctrines we may not see the same on. That is just the way it is. That is what that verse means above. That one man may see Christ THIS way, another THAT way, surely His visage was marred, and still is marred, more than any man. So many differing views of the Christ. What I long for Rob is a true vision, that is not tainted by the fall of adam, or by my own carnal mind, or by my own understanding. But a vision of Christ, not just in me, but in all the rest of the whole stones that cannot be undone in all of us, because it is instilled in us by the Holy Spirit.

And that's not all, that we as Sons, would come forth in His image. Look at this verse.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

That term, in the original went this way. The Lord cometh IN HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF. Just think of a carnival with a house of mirrors. You go in and see a kazillion images of yourself going on forever. That is what that verse means, because the nature and character of God in His sons and daughters is PERFECT, and the Lord appears in that very myriad!

I hope that answers your question.

ken

PS, Rob, do you have Windows Messenger? if so, hook up with us kjvisscher@msn.com

mirrors etc. However, that was the original text whenever that was written

thousands of years ago. Still, I did not want you to have a wrong idea.

It is important that you not form a negative opinion about me or what I am

sharing without first telling me about it. Sometimes a doubt in your mind

about what I share can be one of two things.

1) The Lord warning you about my doctrine and not allowing you to bear

witness to it.

or

2) The Lord (as the spirit of truth), giving YOU a doubt about what you

previously believed.

The problem is sorting out which one it is. My whole objective Rob is to

fellowship with you in the light of the Lord. If there is a doubt about me

in any way, I urge you to express it to me so I have a fair chance at

answering it in the Love of God.

Ken

----- Original Message -----

From: rob

To: Ken & Janis Visscher

Subject: Re: hey

Amazing!!! Do all your friends you've copied on your original emails believe the same way you do or is it mostly your own understanding? I am guessing the former.

Rob

Hello Rob, (as the missiles fly!)

There is a need for me to answer your question above in a certian way.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

I am glad you are a student of the scripture Rob, that gives you the advantage of familiarity with the written word. The danger in that though is if it is INDOCTRINATED into your thinking. Christendom is famous for making bricks out of mud and straw. Anyone who goes to a bible school or college, comes out in the same shape as their teachers. I am going to comment on the scripture above in just a few sentences, but first want to address my statement just made about being made in the same shape as our teachers.

Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up [any] iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.

We are the stones of the altar, built to bear the weight of the sacrifice. NOTE. They were WHOLE STONES, upon which NO MAN has lifted any iron. God is after us JUST the very way He created us to be, not shaped by our education or influences, but shaped by His creative power to fit perfectly with the other stones to be a part of His purpose in showing forth His atonement. When I begin to speak to a person such as yourself, most of what I have to say undoes their religious thinking. In other words, the facade of the mud and straw brick has to be chipped away from the whole living stone that was created by the Hand of God in the first place. What is happening to you Rob, is you are being asked by God to lay down all your previous teachings, because what I share with you will not align with anything the churches state as truth. Well, that's not completely true, there may be elemental things. But not the entire thing for sure.

One of the things you must realize about denominational christianity is it is a form of CONTROL. In fact, the way the bible was converted into the King James Version has many examples in it of CONTROL. The entire interpetation, based on natural thinking, will cause one to believe these erroneous doctrines of eternal torment, and angry God, man has to choose, tithing etc etc etc. All of these are part of the brick making plan of "Babylon" (confusion). What I am doing Rob is setting you free of all that. Free to be that living stone that God created, hearing from God all on your own, being led by Him alone and knowing Him intimately on your own. So that even if you were abandoned on a far away island, isolated from the rest of humanity, your fellowship in God would not be one iota altered. My work as a son of God is to UNDO what damage has been done, to give you the true meat of His word, and allow you to be healed of your past influences. This healing you need must come WITHOUT you holding or harboring any feelings of ill will towards those in the catholic or any other church that held you to false doctrine.

Now on to the first verse I quoted above. You asked me if those that are recieving these emails believe as I do. Yes, they know the God of restoration. But each of us sees the Lord in a little different light, perfect unity of SIGHT is still to come to all of us. That is why God has placed teachers in His body, to teach according to the dictates of His spirit that word which will set one free. I have listed on my site the websites that teach ultimate reconciliation of all things through Christ http://www3.telus.net/wc/salvation_links.html . However, certian side or perifial doctrines we may not see the same on. That is just the way it is. That is what that verse means above. That one man may see Christ THIS way, another THAT way, surely His visage was marred, and still is marred, more than any man. So many differing views of the Christ. What I long for Rob is a true vision, that is not tainted by the fall of adam, or by my own carnal mind, or by my own understanding. But a vision of Christ, not just in me, but in all the rest of the whole stones that cannot be undone in all of us, because it is instilled in us by the Holy Spirit.

And that's not all, that we as Sons, would come forth in His image. Look at this verse.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

That term, in the original went this way. The Lord cometh IN HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF. Just think of a carnival with a house of mirrors. You go in and see a kazillion images of yourself going on forever. That is what that verse means, because the nature and character of God in His sons and daughters is PERFECT, and the Lord appears in that very myriad!

I hope that answers your question.

ken

PS, Rob, do you have Windows Messenger? if so, hook up with us kjvisscher@msn.com