Comments on Rev. 21:8
By Jonathan Mitchell

"Yet for the timid folks (in the cowards having shrinking palpitations) and for faithless ones (in unbelieving or disloyal people; [TR, & Peshita add: and failures/sinners]) and for or by abominable, disgusting folks, and for or in murderers, and for or with prostitutes and for or by sorcerers (users of, or enchanters by, drugs) and for or by idolaters and for, in or by all the liars (the false ones): their portion [is] within the lake (or: their [allotted] part [is] union with the basin; the share from them [is] in the artificial pool; the region pertaining to them [is] centered in the marshy area) continuously burning with Fire and Deity, which is the Second Death."

Now we have an antithesis of Rev. 21:7. There are two immediate inheritances here: one is blessing (vs. 7), the other is correctional judgment for transformation (vs. 8). The indictments of vs. 8 are stronger, but the comparison of these two verses to the scene described in Mat. 25:31-46 seems obvious. Those described in vs. 8 receive the same penalty as those of Mat. 25:41 & 46a. Yet the "crimes" of those in Mat. 25, at first glance, seem much less serious - they are failures of "omission." The kids (immature goats, i.e., the Jewish leadership) failed to show love to Christ's family members during the generation that followed the coming of Jesus as the Messiah.

These in vs. 8, however, are timid folks, unbelievers, faithless ones, murderers, etc. Those in Matt. 25 were just immature and unaware. Do both "groups" receive the same judgment? Both are cast into Fire. But the nature of the judgment in Mat. 25:46 is "kolasin aionion," age-lasting pruning; pruning and correction of growth for an unspecified period of time. And what have we seen to be the nature of fire? It transforms, purifies and causes what is being burned to ascend into the atmosphere. These are thrown into the very midst of God (Fire and Deity). This is really a blessing for them. It is exactly what our Father has been doing with us, as His Fire burns within us, and as we walk through adversarial conditions and circumstances in this life. As Peter said,

"Beloved ones, do not repeatedly feel like strangers to the burning (= the action of the Fire) within and among you folks, which is habitually happening to you with a view toward your being put to the test (or: which is repeatedly coming into being in the face of a proving trial for you; which is progressively birthing itself to an examination in you), as though a strange thing or a foreign occurrence is repeatedly walking with you folks" (1 Pet. 4:12).

As here in 21:7-8, so in Mat. 25: one group inherits the kingdom; the other inherits chastisement, correction and pruning to produce His fruit (Love). And since both the kids and the sheep were part of the Shepherd's herd, in Mat. 25, we suggest that vs. 8 here is a description of the Jewish leadership and zealots of the 1st century. Paul, as Saul, had been one of them. Fire and Deity rained down upon them in AD 70. They were "children of Gehenna" (Mat. 23:15). David Chilton quotes J.P.M. Sweet (Revelation 1979) in regard to vs. 8, "'the list belongs, like similar lists in the epistles, to the context of baptism, the putting off of the "old man" and putting on of the new' (cf Gal. 5:19-26; Eph. 4:17-5:7; Col. 3:5-10; Tit. 3:3-8)" (Days of Vengeance, p 550). That is what this baptism of Fire is all about! It is not "punishment," but cleansing, purification and pruning with the goal of the Spirit's fruit as its aim. Remember Mal. 3:2b-3,

"He [is] like a refiner's Fire, and like fullers' soap. And so He shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver; and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge (or: purify) them as gold and silver, so that they may offer unto Yahweh an offering in righteousness."

Chilton (ibid) points us to the references here in the Unveiling, where each category named in this verse is found elsewhere in the book. Listing them is impressive; they appear throughout the Unveiling:
for the timid (in the cowardly) folks: all these do not "run the race or compete in the games" (Paul's athletic metaphor for a focused life in Christ - 1 Cor. 9:24) and so they are not overcoming or victorious, because they are too timid to "enter the contest."
for faithless ones (in unbelieving or disloyal people): 2:13, 19; 13:10; 14:12.
for failures/sinners: 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 18:20; 19:8.
for or by abominable, disgusting folks: 17:4-5; 21:27 (note that location, in vs. 27, below: it is outside the City, but not in a pagan "hell;" these are those who partook of the "golden cup," in 17:4; cf Mat. 24:15).
for or in murderers:13:15; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24. Cf Mat. 23:37; Acts 7:52 (the Jewish leadership).
for or with prostitutes: 2:14, 20-22; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2, 4-5; 18:3; 19:2.
for or by sorcerers (users or formulators of drugs): 9:21; 18:23; 22:15. Cf 18:2.
for or by idolaters: 2:14, 20; 9:20; 13:4, 12-15. Cf 18:2, "abode of every impure attitude (unclean spirit)."
in or by all the liars (the false ones): 2:2; 3:9; 16:13; 19:20; 20:10; 21:27; 22:15. Cf Jn. 8:44.

Who are all these folks that comprise this list? They represent a cross-section of humanity: the "lost" folks whom the Good Shepherd will, in time, find (Lu. 15:4-7) and transform (Rom. 12:2). In this "cosmic opera" (Malcolm Smith's term for the Unveiling) they provide the dark, contrasting backdrop for each scene of the play. Kurt Simmons (The Consummation of the Ages, p 404) points us to Mk. 8:38-9:1, which should be read together as part of the same discourse:

"'Furthermore, whosoever may be ashamed of or embarrassed because of Me and My messages (Words; Thoughts; Ideas) within the midst of this adulterous and erring (failing; mis-shooting; sinful; deviating) generation, the Son of the Man (or: the son of mankind; the Human) will also continue being ashamed of and embarrassed because of him - whenever (at the time that) He may come within the midst of His Father's glory (or: in a manifestation which calls forth praise for His Father) along with the set-apart agents (or: holy messengers; sacred folks with the message).' Then He continued saying to them, 'Truly (or: Assuredly; Amen), I am now saying to you folks that there are certain ones (or: some) of those standing here who under no circumstances can taste (may test by sipping; = experience; partake) of death until they can (should; may) see God's kingdom (God's reign and influence as King; the sovereign activity which is God) being present, having already come within the midst of power and ability.'"

These folks, who might be ashamed or embarrassed, would be the timid, or cowardly, in that 1st century honor/shame-based society. Much in this list has to do with actions, works or deeds. We read in Jn. 3:19 that,

"Now this continues being the (or: So there continues being the same) process of the sifting, the separating and the deciding (the evaluating; the judging), because the Light has come (or: has gone) into the world (the aggregate of humanity; the ordered system and arrangement of religion, culture and government; or: the system of control and regulation), and yet the humans love the darkness (or: the men [= the leadership] love and fully give themselves to the dimness of obscurity and gloom; or: mankind loved and moved toward union with the shadow-realm) rather than the Light, for their WORKS (deeds; actions) were continuing to be bad ones (unsound ones; wicked ones; laborious ones; toilsome ones that created bad news; wrongful ones)," Cf 1 Cor. 3:13.

The last category listed, "all the liars (or: false ones)," was a theme addressed in 1 John:

"The person who keeps on saying, 'I have come to know Him by experience,' and yet is not habitually keeping (observing) His implanted goals (impartations of the finished product within; inward directives), is a liar (exists being one who speaks falsehood) and God's Truth (the Reality of God; the Genuine Actuality which is God) is not (or: does not exist) within this one" (2:4).

"Which one is (exists continuously being) the liar, if not the person habitually denying (repeatedly disowning; constantly contradicting), [saying] that Jesus is not the Christ (the Anointed One [= Messiah])? This person is (exists being) the anti-anointing (or: anti-anointed person; the one taking the place of and being in the opposite position of the anointing and of Christ)..." (2:22).

"If anyone may up and say, 'I am constantly loving God,' and yet may be habitually hating (or: would keep on regarding with ill-will or detaching from) his brother, he is a liar (he exists being a false one)" (4:20a).

"the one not believing in God [A reads: the Son] has made Him out to be (or: has construed Him) a liar, because he has not believed or put trust into the evidence (testimony; witness) which God has attested and affirmed concerning His Son (or: shown as proof round about the Son from, and which is, Him)" (5:10b).

Dan Kaplan pointed us to Isa. 28:15-18, where the people of Jerusalem had "made a lie their refuge." Speaking to them, Yahweh says,

"For you say: 'We have contracted a covenant with Death, and with the Unseen (sheol) we have made a public treaty: The overflowing scourge, when it passes, it shall not come on us, for we have made a lie our refuge, and in falsehood we are concealed...' [Yet] your covenant with Death will be annulled, and your public treaty with the Unseen shall not stand firm..."

Here, John may have "categories" or "religious groups" in mind, as well as individuals. We can discern these categories as potentially targeting the unbelieving Jews, or the unbelieving pagans. Paul may have been thinking along these same lines when he wrote Tit. 1:15-16,

"To the pure folks, everything [is] pure (or: All things [are] clean for, with and in the clean ones). Yet to (or: for; in; with) those having been stained and remaining defiled (corrupted; polluted), and to (or: for; in; with) faithless people (those without trust; unbelieving ones who lack loyalty), nothing is pure or clean - but rather, their mind, as well as the conscience, has been - and now remains - stained, defiled and corrupted. They are repeatedly adopting the same terms of language, and habitually making confession and avowing to have perceived and now know God, YET they are constantly contradicting and denying (repudiating; disowning; refusing) [this] by the (or: their) WORKS (in the actions and things done), continuing being detestable (abominable), incompliant (stubborn; disobedient; unpersuasive) and disqualified (disapproved; rejected after trial) with a view toward every good work (excellent and virtuous activity)."

Recall that "the Second Death" (here, in vs. 8: "burning with Fire and Deity") was mentioned in 2:11, above, and it is those mentioned here in vs. 7, above, who will not "be injured or harmed from the midst of the second death," but it does not say that they will not experience it! The "gold, silver and precious stone" of 1 Cor. 3:12 experienced the same Fire as did the "wood, hay and stubble" - but the former survived the Fire unhurt, while the latter "experienced loss" (3:15) even while being "saved, delivered and healed" by that same Fire. Paul made a similar list in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, and then a list in Gal. 5:19-21 where he categorizes them as,

"the WORKS (actions; deeds) of the flesh [religion] (or: = whose source and origin are the estranged human nature; or: pertaining to the flesh [system, or, nature]; or: = whose results and realm are the self in slavery to a system)."

In Eph. 5:3-5, he ends the list showing what it is that folks who practice such things are missing:

"[A person with such behavior] is not now holding enjoyment of an inheritance (does not currently continue having use of an allotted gift from someone who has died) within the Christ's and God's reign or sphere of sovereign activity (or: in union with the kingdom of the Anointed One [= the Messiah], as well as of God; or: centered in the royal influence from the Christ, and from God; [p46: within the reign of God])."

This is like the Jews who missed out on the manifestations of God's glory, in the book of Acts. G.K. Beale (NIGTC, The Book of Rev., p 1061) points out that Israel and Judea had been accused of three of the items of our list here in vs. 8. Jer. 3:9-10 declares,

"And yet her prostitution came to nothing, and she committed adultery with the tree (or: wood) and the stone [= idolatry]. Then in all these things faithless (treacherous; not-staying-with-the-covenant) Juda did not return to Me from out of her whole heart, but only in lying (by falseness and with pretense)" (LXX, JM).

We would be advised to consider the corporate application (the Jewish leadership in Jesus' day, along with possibly the Zealots who fomented the Jewish wars, and the synagogue resistance in the Diaspora), keeping in mind that all the vices listed here in vs. 8 are SYMBOLS, as well.

It is noteworthy that this list of unredeemed humanity (here, in vs. 8) comes into the SAME dealing of God that the little animal, the false prophet and the adversarial spirit also undergo (above: 19:20; 20:7-10). That is because all that those three symbols represent are within us, until he cleanses us from them. It is the place where the "kids" had to endure a period of "pruning" (Mat. 25:41, 46). But this is not the end. Hos. 13:14 gave a promise:

"From the grip of the Unseen I shall ransom them; from Death I shall redeem them."

The second death is the end (i.e., the death) of Death for those who are processed by it. Paul spoke of this in 1 Tim. 1:10, referring to the work of Christ:

"our Deliverer (Savior; Rescuer), Christ Jesus - on the one hand, idling down death (or: The Death) so as to make it unproductive and useless, yet on the other hand, illuminating (giving light to) life and incorruptibility (the absence of the ability to decay; un-ruinableness) through means of the message of goodness, ease and well-being."

The work of Christ was complete, but each of us enters into it existentially, and experientially, as we are born into this life, and are processed by this life. On the cross, all humanity was

"immersed (or: at one point soaked or baptized) into Christ Jesus: [was] immersed (or: baptized) into His death" (Rom. 6:3). Christ's death was the "second death" - the death to the realm of "sin and death."

But He did not die "instead of us," He died as us, on our behalf, and took us with Him into that second death. It is pictured here as "Fire and Deity." Although the work of Jesus, on the cross, was "finished," all humanity must go through the purification of His presence, and Parental correction (Heb. 12:2-11). But, as with Christ, His purifying fires can yield a joy that is set before us, for we know the outcome, because:

"We, then (or: consequently), were buried together (entombed together with funeral rites) in Him (or: by Him; with Him), through the immersion (baptism) into the death, to the end that we can walk around (or: we also should likewise conduct ourselves and order our behavior) within newness of life" (Rom. 6:4).

God's Divine Nature (Deity) is Love. The Fiery experiences that He takes us through in this life, and perhaps, the next (?), are expressions of His Love. It is for the love of gold that a refiner puts the gold ore in the fire: to remove all that is not gold. This second death is so that we no longer will

"let the Sin continue reigning (or: allowing the failure, the mistake, or the deviation from the goal to continue on the throne ruling as king) within our mortal body," and would "stop constantly placing our members (or: body parts) alongside (providing and presenting them) [as] tools (or: instruments) of injustice (disregard for what is right; activities discordant to the Way pointed out); but rather, at once place ourselves alongside for disposal to God (or: stand yourselves with God, at [His] side; by and in God, present yourselves; set yourselves alongside [each other], for God)" (Rom. 6:12-13).

Richard Rohr makes an astute observation:

"But the core value and transformative truth of initial God experience is still there, right beneath the surface, in many people who were "baptized in both fire and Spirit," which is Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:11b) as distinguished from John's mere water baptism. If we would be honest, many Christians belong to the ritual and moral religion of John more than the fire religion of Jesus, which is based in living experience" (Daily Meditations, 01/25/17).

That is the existential reality of which vs. 8, here, is speaking.

The process of being put into the Second Death is to bring about the fulfillment of 1 Cor. 15:26, 28,

"[The] last holder of ruin (or: enemy; quality having ill-will) being progressively brought down to idleness (made ineffective, useless and unproductive) [is] the Death (or: Death, a last enemy, is being presently nullified and abolished)....
Now whenever the whole (or: all things) may be completely supportively-aligned in Him (or: subjected and appended to Him; subordinately sheltered and arranged for Him), then the Son Himself will also continue being supportively aligned to, fully subjoined for and humbly attached under as an arranged shelter in, the One subjecting, appending and sheltering the whole in Him (or: attaching all things to Him), to the end that God can be all things within the midst of and in union with all humanity (or: may be everything in all things; or: should exist being All in all; or: would exist being everything, within the midst of everyone)."

It is the death within us that needs to die. That death is like the weeds that an adversary over-sowed in our field (Mat. 13:24-30). This second death symbol calls to mind the process of ridding the field of weeds, thorns and thistles, in Heb. 6:7-8, freeing it, so that the rich soil can be sown with Good Seed, once again. Dan Kaplan commented on this:

"Thorns and thistles are the imitations of the real life giving words. The old man Adam and his seed that was in him produced in him after his/its kind: doubt, fear, unbelief, worry, cares of life, hate, strife, malice, envy, false witness, division, deception, murder. This death-producing flesh and the carnal mind that produces these seeds needs to die."

Milton Terry makes insightful comments at this point, regarding interpreting these visions:

"But we shall miss the great purpose of John's Apocalypse if we presume to treat these seven last visions of triumph as [only] a literal record of historic events... It is an ideal picture of what the Messiah is and what he does during the whole period of his reign; not [just] of any one particular event of his coming" (Biblical Apocalyptics, p 463; brackets added, as our view).

I like Ken Nichols' take on this verse:

"I read the list in 21:8 like this:
the timid (or, cowardly) folks - those who are still afraid of God (listed first [intentionally?] as this represents SO many people);
and for faithless ones (in unbelieving people) - those who continuously doubt God's love for them;
and for or by abominable, disgusting folks - those who feel dirty and unclean (guilty) before God;
and for or in murderers, - those who have committed heinous crimes and believe they cannot ever be forgiven;
and for or with prostitutes - those who have done such things that their self-worth and worth before God are shattered;
and for or by sorcerers (users of drugs) - those stuck in addiction, to substances or worldly power, who do not know how to get free;
and for or by idolaters - those who still place other things ahead of God, such as money, or have misplaced devotion, say to a church or a preacher;
and for, in or by all the liars (the false ones) - those who lie to themselves and everyone else that all is fine between them and God, but still, in their heart, they feel far from Him. They need to confess this truth, and discover the underlying issue (likely one of those above) that is keeping them 'distant.'

"Of course, I'm not saying that's exactly what John had in mind when he wrote that, but viewing it through the compassion of Christ (and isn't that part and parcel with the fire of God), this is what I see. Everyone who still needs 'refinement' to realize God's true character of goodness and love and how God sees them as precious children, no matter what the world, religion or they themselves have told them.

"I think this death is 'thrown into the fire' because that's where it happens. God 'defeats' this death by birthing again all those who die in this fire - who finally 'give in' and allow God's love to renew them and give them their true identity in Him. This death is the 'last enemy,' meaning to me that once you get through this time, you (hopefully) never go back to 'adversarial' (Satanic) thinking like those things listed above. This is how 'those who lose their life will find it.'

"I'm also sitting here thinking on the 'Book of Life' again. It says all those not found in the book are cast into the fire. They have not yet found their TRUE life. They have not yet passed from death (2nd) unto life (ontologically in Christ, yes, they have but not in their own minds). One writes themselves into the book of life, when one realize their true self, their true source OF life, and oneness with that source" (from a personal email).

Brian Zahnd cites Heb. 10:31, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God," and then explains:

"And no doubt it is. In the hands of God, there is no place to hide. We have to be honest with ourselves. In the hands of God, we can no longer live in the disguise of our lies. In the hands of God, we have to face ourselves. And that can be terrifying. When the prodigal son returned home and fell into the arms of his father, I'm sure the boy felt afraid. We can tell by how he immediately speaks of his unworthiness, 'I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' This wayward son has fallen into the hands of his father; his fate is in his father's hands.. and he is afraid. But there is no better place to be! This gracious father in Jesus's parable is given to us as a picture of our heavenly Father! When the prodigal son fell fearfully into the hands of his father, forgiveness, healing and restoration began. Just because the prodigal son felt fear as he fell into his father's hands doesn't mean he had anything to fear FROM his father. In his father's hands was the only safe place to be. It was in the far country that the prodigal son was in danger, not in his father's hands. When we fall into the hands of the living God, we are sinners in the hands of a loving God" (Sinners in The Hands of a Loving God, ibid p 19-20; emphasis added).

Let us also consider the metaphorical use of "fire" that we find in Ps. 65 in the LXX (66, in MT):Unto the Goal (Into the midst of the Finished Product, the Completed End in View) An Ode, which is a Psalm pertaining to Resurrection

1. Let all the Land (or: territory; earth) shout aloud to God (for God; with God)!
2. O now sing to and play stringed instruments at length for (or: in) His Name! You folks give glory to (supply a good reputation for; present a manifestation which engenders praise of; render an assumed Appearance in) His praise!
3. You people say to God, "How awesome (respect-engendering) [are] Your works (accomplishments; deeds; actions)! Centered in (or: In the midst of) the magnitude (great extent; mass) of Your power and the greater amount of Your ability, Your hostile folks (folks who hate) will repeatedly lie concerning You (deal falsely with You)."
4. Let all the Land (or: earth) at once collectively do obeisance to and in You, and then at once collectively make music to, for and in Your Name.
5. Come and see the works of, and from, God: awesome (respect-engendering) in desired plans above, and centered in designed purposes beyond, the sons of the humans.
6. He is the One progressively turning-together, altering and changing the sea into dry land: "In a river, they will proceed going through on foot!" There, in that place, they will progressively be put into a good, healthy frame of mind with a disposition of well-being and ease [being set] upon Him,
7. [that is,] on the One continuously ruling (being master) in union with (in the midst of) the exercising of His power and ability of (or: pertaining to; from) the Age: His eyes are constantly looking upon and attentively observing the ethnic multitudes (the nations); let not those habitually provoking or embittering continue lifted up within themselves.
8. O ethnic multitudes (nations), be habitually speaking well of (saying good things about; blessing) our God, and make heard the voice of the praise of Him:
9. Who is the One placing (setting) my soul (inner life) into Life, not giving my feet into a surge from a rolling swell (a wavering or tottering).
10. Because You, O God, tested and proved us (made a trial to assay, discern and then approve us). You purged and purified us in Fire, as the silver is repeatedly purged and purified (refined).
11. You brought us into the snare; You set squeezing pressures (ordeals or distressing trials and afflictions; tribulations) upon our back;
12. You mounted people upon our heads: we went through Fire and Water, and then You led (brought) us out of the midst [of it] into an upward-life (breath-again; re-animation; an again-soul; a person-again). (JM) Notice the praise accorded to God for the purifying work of the "Fire" upon Israel, in this Psalm. That is our pattern for interpreting these Fire scenes in the Unveiling.

Jonathan (an excerpt from the yet unpublished: "End of the Old and the Beginning of the New: Comments on Revelation)

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